Alicia Norman: Abuse of women is NEVER funny. Not by Jackie Gleason -- as a young boy in the 1950s, I did NOT enjoy the "Honeymooners", because I was terrified at the temper of the character portrayed by Jackie Gleason. "One day, Alice, One DAY, RIGHT in the Kisser, Straight TO THE MOON!" -- That line frightened the young boy and angered me, making me want to be there to protect "Alice."
I do NOT forgive these faults of Jackie Gleason or others.
"Kill Tony" (KILLJOY, I call him -- namely, Tony Hinchcliffe) showed himself to be an Aryan nationalist.
Period.
And Harvard-Boy JD Vance, in doubling down on his Blood Libel against Haitians and in standing for Mr. Killjoy, allies himself with Aryan nationalists.
If you want a Grand Wizard of the KKK, it would appear, JD Vance -- with his Harvard Pedigree -- would be the man.
Oh agreed--which is why although I found other aspects of Murphy's humor funny I never liked him. Like I don't think I could hang out with him and I often wondered what the hell Mel B was thinking going out with him. Didn't she watch his stand up?
Old white woman here…thanks for the consciousness raising. I never thought about anyone being frightened by Ralph Cramden. He was such an obvious bag of wind. But to a child threats of violence ARE scary, especially if you live with them. I know. Thanks
I loved "The Honeymooners" because 1) I never believed Ralph would ever lay a finger on Alice; and 2) the show was often genuinely funny. But from a more adult perspective, I can now see that the jokes depended on a deep-seated misogyny that is totally unacceptable. I agree, thinking about it more deeply, that while an adult could look at the Kramdens and see a real love match, the constant threats would terrify a child. Perhaps that's why they were childless. Thanks for your perspective.
I'm on board with you, Armand. Gleason didn't frighten me, he repelled me with that misogyny. BTW, Vance went THE (as the state insists) Ohio State University for college then on to Yale for law school. He's still a schmuck, just with different athletic penants.
Alicia Norman: "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel" is available on Amazon Prime and follows the career of a young divorcee who suddenly finds herself doing stand-up and the crowds react instantly to her hilarity. Mostly Jewish and domestic jokes.
Mrs. Maisel is LOOSELY base on Joan Rivers, and it is sad and it is funny.
Her manager is the REAL star of the show, with Alex Borstein playing a very butch and CYNICAL Susie Meyerson (Gaslight Cafe!). OMG, for the real hilarity of the show, watch HER!
Alex Borston's character ALONE makes the show worthwhile.
She outshines all the rest. She is rough, cynical, protective (of Mrs. Maisel) and she really is HILARIOUS.
For the rest, it is all right.
But did I tell you about the Susie Meyerson character, who was HILARIOUS . . . THAT is to me what the show is REALLY about.
I’m going back to respectfully disagree. Yes Borstein was great. However, I think Rachel Brosnahan was also great and I believe the entire ensemble cast did a magnificent job.
Joan Rivers. All I ever saw of her was her always trashing Elizabeth Taylor.
I never idolized any comedian but loved some individual acts. For example I love the Carlin act about the Ten Commandments. I still love the Abbot and Costello’s “who’s on first”.
I liked people most of your readers wouldn’t know because of generations apart like many of the comedians on an old show called Laugh In, however, recently watched a couple of episodes and it was not as funny now.
It seems our perceptions of humor changes as we change. Loved Lenny Bruce and Steve Allen during their days but never liked Johnny Carson.
All the late night comedians may have had their moments but never thought Jimmy Fallon was funny. The Daily Show has some good stuff. SNL occasionally has good stuff. Like Bill Mather early but now just a pompous ass.
I guess the humor we like is a reflection of our own interiors, interiors that change over time.
And maybe humor changes with the general Zeitgeist --as someone pointed out watermelon jokes may have been the height of humor back in the day, as was Hee-Haw, which I did love. Always enjoyed the old bros singing "Gloom, despair and agony on me..." I guess because it didn't seem they were making fun of hillbillies but more like celebrating folk communities--
I’d basically agree. Loved Carson (back when I could stay up that late because I didn’t go to work at 5am!), found and still find Fallon as “meh”, but Jimmy Kimmel has really grown on me over time (I catch YouTube clips of his best), and Colbert most reminds me of Carson. Laugh-in was funny but like SNL its topical humor mostly doesn’t hold up long… you had to be there in the moment (although I still remember how funny they seemed in the day.
Kimmel has grown on me. Colbert has his misses although when he hits her generally smacks hard. SNL had its good bits and its misses. While you didn't mention Bill Maher, which I don't blame you for not doing so, he seemed funny once upon a time only to find he's become a windbag who relies a lot on veiled insult humor.
Huge comedy fan. You have superb taste. Tony doesn't know what comedy is. It was a parody of comedy. The most important job is to be funny. He's a shitty "comedian" and even shittier person. These MAGAs assholes have have their shame instincts surgically removed. It's hard to be funny when you're handcuffed to two dead hookers.
Their shame, their empathy, their decency--replaced by rage and grievance. Sad to see so many pole just wallow in their baser instincts. We're looking at the encroachment of The Purge or the Crucible.
What gets me about this is his material is so old. Even in the world of roast comedy I believe the most effective acts closely observe their victims and make canny observations. (See Obama’s roast of DJT at the WH correspondents dinner.)
This guy made an 1860s joke about watermelons. Maybe that shit was edgy back when Tambo & Bones were doing it, but these days it’s the kind of joke you tend to find more in museums than in a set.
Then he followed it up with a joke about Jews from 1273. Literally same joke as preformed by the guy waving a pigs bladder on a stick.
I mean when court jesters are asking for their material back, you have a problem.
Thanks for another great piece, Ms. Norman. It may be a generalization, but it's true: Republicans and their ilk can't take a joke at their expense, but boy-howdy, they sure do love them some rando talking shit about minorities and women and calling it "humor." Look, I was raised in the Deep South by genteelly racist parents who considered the N-word crude and beneath them; they came down hard on us kids if we ever echoed it when talking about what we'd heard at our friends' houses or at school.
And yet.
My folks and my grandparents loved what they called "a good Negro joke." When I was really little, I told them the ones I heard to make them laugh. It wasn't till I was in my teens I realized these so-called "jokes" were targeting my newly-made Black friends. I felt such shame, such self-loathing. Thinking of it, I still wish I could slap my eight-year-old mouth for the vile things I said before I knew better.
Now, watching and listening to that evil shit Hinchcliffe, spewing racist garbage at the felon's MSG event to a preening, enrapt crowd of racist MAGA assholes, my hand itches to slap them all, but Ima use it to vote instead. See y'all at the polls.
In your defense you were a child, a gown man like Tony knows better and could give two shits. And thank you--there was something whirring in my brain after I learned about Kill Tony's awful act and I had to purge it here.
I guess everyone is hit and miss but I still absolutely adore George Carlin. I wonder what he would have had to say about the shit show that is today’s MAGA Republicans.
I believe it was Lyz Lenz that said "it isn't a joke if it isn't funny" in the context of a co-worker telling a racially insensitive joke. Clearly, Kill Tony is not funny.
I work in tech, and the number of fragile middle aged mediocre white dudes who think because I am white and middle aged (early Gen X) I am in their cohort of blatant racism and sexism. They all think their jokes are hilarious.
They are usually shocked when I ask "Do you think that is really appropriate?", or say "That isn't even remotely funny, never say that again" they get defensive and mutter something about political correctness gone wild.
I then counter with being an asshole is a condition that can be cured, but you have to admit that you have a problem first.
OOoo I love it. Yeah it's everyone else fault if you are a meanspirited, clueless individual. No self reflection or even a desire to see if what they are putting out there is right. Good looking out and fist bump!!!
I never liked slapstick. It’s just not funny. I never liked the Andrew Dice Clays or Sam Kinisons or Andy Kaufman. John Mulaney is hysterical to me. I liked Ellen Degeneres in her early days.Zach Galifianakis also makes me laugh. Chris Rock and Tracy Morgan are greats. This Tony guy sucks. Fuck Tony.
I don't mind the look on a guy--but its like a ponytail or a bun on a guy--some can rock it and make it sexy--others not to much. On Vance the guyliner looks hellah dumb.
They can go blue as far as they want, I’m not prissy and if you make me laugh I can forgive almost everything. Hinchcliffe isn’t funny. And he’s shit. Like his employer the other night.
Sorry for that visceral reaction to him, A. . There’s such a wide latitude that I give to those humans that can make the world - if not wholly - passably tolerable, but I just really despise the poseurs who think insult equals funny.
*huuugs* No need to apologize, I am right there with you--and witty dry humor of the British variety insult can be fun--I've had it directed at me and could only laugh myself to tears--but such humor is often all in good jest. Not with Kill Tony or whatever the heck he calls himself. Someone needs to "kill" his career, where is a good stage hook when you need it? LOL--sending so much love!
Sadly, I've met women who find some of the abuse of women humor funny. Somehow they didn't get how offensive it is. I used to laugh at that 💩 until I realized years later how horrific it is.
As for Roast humor, I find some of it funny like the annual stuff done to roast a certain celebrity. Also, Obama's roast of DJT at that one dinner was so on point. I saw the one roast of the late Bob Saget and most of that just seemed juvenile and unfunny.
One insult comic that I had heard of yet had never seen was Andrew “Dice” Clay. After years of never seeing any of his stuff I tried to give him a chance on YouTube. I don't think I made it out of the first 30 minutes. His shtick was disgusting and vile yet I can see why DJT would find him funny until Clay once did a routine about DJT that nailed him.
This also makes me think about Two Live Crew. Some of their music seems misogynistic. When I've listened to it via YouTube I can hear how some people are offended yet I hear the group satirizing such behavior and showing how pathetic it really is.
Indeed--As I got older I truly began to despise how often violence against women is used as a punchline... little wonder some folks have become desensitized to the idea of it and so many in our society view harm coming to women so cavalierly.
I get it. I get how some women comics have turned the table so that men get uncomfortable when it's about men being the subjugated abused partner. I've come to find that humor goes a bit far at times. I remember hearing about that becoming a thing somewhere around the time of the metoo movement. Some women actually called out the comics for those jokes because they said it was no better than when men made such jokes. The pendulum of extremes keeps swinging.
Alicia Norman: Abuse of women is NEVER funny. Not by Jackie Gleason -- as a young boy in the 1950s, I did NOT enjoy the "Honeymooners", because I was terrified at the temper of the character portrayed by Jackie Gleason. "One day, Alice, One DAY, RIGHT in the Kisser, Straight TO THE MOON!" -- That line frightened the young boy and angered me, making me want to be there to protect "Alice."
I do NOT forgive these faults of Jackie Gleason or others.
"Kill Tony" (KILLJOY, I call him -- namely, Tony Hinchcliffe) showed himself to be an Aryan nationalist.
Period.
And Harvard-Boy JD Vance, in doubling down on his Blood Libel against Haitians and in standing for Mr. Killjoy, allies himself with Aryan nationalists.
If you want a Grand Wizard of the KKK, it would appear, JD Vance -- with his Harvard Pedigree -- would be the man.
Oh agreed--which is why although I found other aspects of Murphy's humor funny I never liked him. Like I don't think I could hang out with him and I often wondered what the hell Mel B was thinking going out with him. Didn't she watch his stand up?
Old white woman here…thanks for the consciousness raising. I never thought about anyone being frightened by Ralph Cramden. He was such an obvious bag of wind. But to a child threats of violence ARE scary, especially if you live with them. I know. Thanks
Thank you...
I loved "The Honeymooners" because 1) I never believed Ralph would ever lay a finger on Alice; and 2) the show was often genuinely funny. But from a more adult perspective, I can now see that the jokes depended on a deep-seated misogyny that is totally unacceptable. I agree, thinking about it more deeply, that while an adult could look at the Kramdens and see a real love match, the constant threats would terrify a child. Perhaps that's why they were childless. Thanks for your perspective.
I'm on board with you, Armand. Gleason didn't frighten me, he repelled me with that misogyny. BTW, Vance went THE (as the state insists) Ohio State University for college then on to Yale for law school. He's still a schmuck, just with different athletic penants.
Carol L. Clark: Actually, of the two, Yale has the more reputable law school. A more philosophically rooted jurisprudence.
Never liked Gleason for same reason. Thought Lucy O’Ball was a comedic genius for her time but got tired of it.
Things change. Loved the first season or two of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel but the last season sucked IMO.
I never caught that show--what was it about?
Alicia Norman: "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel" is available on Amazon Prime and follows the career of a young divorcee who suddenly finds herself doing stand-up and the crowds react instantly to her hilarity. Mostly Jewish and domestic jokes.
Mrs. Maisel is LOOSELY base on Joan Rivers, and it is sad and it is funny.
Her manager is the REAL star of the show, with Alex Borstein playing a very butch and CYNICAL Susie Meyerson (Gaslight Cafe!). OMG, for the real hilarity of the show, watch HER!
Alex Borston's character ALONE makes the show worthwhile.
She outshines all the rest. She is rough, cynical, protective (of Mrs. Maisel) and she really is HILARIOUS.
For the rest, it is all right.
But did I tell you about the Susie Meyerson character, who was HILARIOUS . . . THAT is to me what the show is REALLY about.
I’m going back to respectfully disagree. Yes Borstein was great. However, I think Rachel Brosnahan was also great and I believe the entire ensemble cast did a magnificent job.
Totally. This guy is not even up to the Andrew Dice Clay’s standard, and that was a quite a low point in “comedy” imo.
Me too--I never found Dice funny and his offensive stuff was just lame.
Don Rickles. Couldn’t stand him.
Joan Rivers. All I ever saw of her was her always trashing Elizabeth Taylor.
I never idolized any comedian but loved some individual acts. For example I love the Carlin act about the Ten Commandments. I still love the Abbot and Costello’s “who’s on first”.
I liked people most of your readers wouldn’t know because of generations apart like many of the comedians on an old show called Laugh In, however, recently watched a couple of episodes and it was not as funny now.
It seems our perceptions of humor changes as we change. Loved Lenny Bruce and Steve Allen during their days but never liked Johnny Carson.
All the late night comedians may have had their moments but never thought Jimmy Fallon was funny. The Daily Show has some good stuff. SNL occasionally has good stuff. Like Bill Mather early but now just a pompous ass.
I guess the humor we like is a reflection of our own interiors, interiors that change over time.
And maybe humor changes with the general Zeitgeist --as someone pointed out watermelon jokes may have been the height of humor back in the day, as was Hee-Haw, which I did love. Always enjoyed the old bros singing "Gloom, despair and agony on me..." I guess because it didn't seem they were making fun of hillbillies but more like celebrating folk communities--
I’d basically agree. Loved Carson (back when I could stay up that late because I didn’t go to work at 5am!), found and still find Fallon as “meh”, but Jimmy Kimmel has really grown on me over time (I catch YouTube clips of his best), and Colbert most reminds me of Carson. Laugh-in was funny but like SNL its topical humor mostly doesn’t hold up long… you had to be there in the moment (although I still remember how funny they seemed in the day.
Good round up!
Kimmel has grown on me. Colbert has his misses although when he hits her generally smacks hard. SNL had its good bits and its misses. While you didn't mention Bill Maher, which I don't blame you for not doing so, he seemed funny once upon a time only to find he's become a windbag who relies a lot on veiled insult humor.
Fully agree about Jimmy Kimmel.
Huge comedy fan. You have superb taste. Tony doesn't know what comedy is. It was a parody of comedy. The most important job is to be funny. He's a shitty "comedian" and even shittier person. These MAGAs assholes have have their shame instincts surgically removed. It's hard to be funny when you're handcuffed to two dead hookers.
Their shame, their empathy, their decency--replaced by rage and grievance. Sad to see so many pole just wallow in their baser instincts. We're looking at the encroachment of The Purge or the Crucible.
It's hard to be funny when you're handcuffed to two dead hookers." I am going to hell for laughing way too hard at that
What gets me about this is his material is so old. Even in the world of roast comedy I believe the most effective acts closely observe their victims and make canny observations. (See Obama’s roast of DJT at the WH correspondents dinner.)
This guy made an 1860s joke about watermelons. Maybe that shit was edgy back when Tambo & Bones were doing it, but these days it’s the kind of joke you tend to find more in museums than in a set.
Then he followed it up with a joke about Jews from 1273. Literally same joke as preformed by the guy waving a pigs bladder on a stick.
I mean when court jesters are asking for their material back, you have a problem.
"I mean when court jesters are asking for their material back, you have a problem."
That line was 10 xs funnier than anything the man had said all night!
😂😂
Thanks for another great piece, Ms. Norman. It may be a generalization, but it's true: Republicans and their ilk can't take a joke at their expense, but boy-howdy, they sure do love them some rando talking shit about minorities and women and calling it "humor." Look, I was raised in the Deep South by genteelly racist parents who considered the N-word crude and beneath them; they came down hard on us kids if we ever echoed it when talking about what we'd heard at our friends' houses or at school.
And yet.
My folks and my grandparents loved what they called "a good Negro joke." When I was really little, I told them the ones I heard to make them laugh. It wasn't till I was in my teens I realized these so-called "jokes" were targeting my newly-made Black friends. I felt such shame, such self-loathing. Thinking of it, I still wish I could slap my eight-year-old mouth for the vile things I said before I knew better.
Now, watching and listening to that evil shit Hinchcliffe, spewing racist garbage at the felon's MSG event to a preening, enrapt crowd of racist MAGA assholes, my hand itches to slap them all, but Ima use it to vote instead. See y'all at the polls.
In your defense you were a child, a gown man like Tony knows better and could give two shits. And thank you--there was something whirring in my brain after I learned about Kill Tony's awful act and I had to purge it here.
Shame is like a wine stain—it never really comes out, no matter how often you try to clean it.
Love ya, girl. Keep up the good work!
Thanks sis, love you!
I like everyone you mentioned.
George Carlin. “Dogma”.
I appreciate Jon Stewart doing what he continues to do with the 9/11 workers.
I no longer find him as funny.
Bill Maher. I did a 180.
He’s not funny, anymore.
Preachy&Political. Bill Maher is another old white guy.
Whoever this Tony Hinchcliffe is, he appeared at a hate rally. To be willing to appear at a replica 1939 Nazi Rally, one must have a point of view.
+Not funny.
100 percent agree and co-signed! You said it!
ThankYou
No, thank you--appreciate it.
I guess everyone is hit and miss but I still absolutely adore George Carlin. I wonder what he would have had to say about the shit show that is today’s MAGA Republicans.
Oh, you know he would tear them a new one--I really do wish we could hear what he had to say---
Bravo!
I believe it was Lyz Lenz that said "it isn't a joke if it isn't funny" in the context of a co-worker telling a racially insensitive joke. Clearly, Kill Tony is not funny.
and a racist to boot--fit in fine with MAGA though.
I work in tech, and the number of fragile middle aged mediocre white dudes who think because I am white and middle aged (early Gen X) I am in their cohort of blatant racism and sexism. They all think their jokes are hilarious.
They are usually shocked when I ask "Do you think that is really appropriate?", or say "That isn't even remotely funny, never say that again" they get defensive and mutter something about political correctness gone wild.
I then counter with being an asshole is a condition that can be cured, but you have to admit that you have a problem first.
OOoo I love it. Yeah it's everyone else fault if you are a meanspirited, clueless individual. No self reflection or even a desire to see if what they are putting out there is right. Good looking out and fist bump!!!
Self reflection? People do not self reflect because they are subconsciously afraid that they are the joke.
THIS--this right here! Tell it!
YTB, your columns always send me on a deep dive into the interwebs and your observations are spot on. Thank you.
I remember this bit from my late teens.
https://youtu.be/co42in3vWIY?si=HlZHFneU7A9GIt1Y
Time to watch “Dolomite” again.
Dolomite--OMG take me back why don't you! LOL
😎
I never liked slapstick. It’s just not funny. I never liked the Andrew Dice Clays or Sam Kinisons or Andy Kaufman. John Mulaney is hysterical to me. I liked Ellen Degeneres in her early days.Zach Galifianakis also makes me laugh. Chris Rock and Tracy Morgan are greats. This Tony guy sucks. Fuck Tony.
IKR -- Kill Tony? No, just tell Tony to go away, to go far, far, far away....
JD Vance is a ridiculous example of a human being. Why is he wearing eyeliner for? Didn’t look go out in the 1980’s?
I don't mind the look on a guy--but its like a ponytail or a bun on a guy--some can rock it and make it sexy--others not to much. On Vance the guyliner looks hellah dumb.
It does look dumb
Carlin’s Class Clown album is brilliant.
Humph--don't think I heard that one--will look into it.
Alicia - I’ve missed you! 💕 always
Love you sis--missed you too. And I need your positive vibes sent my way! :-)
There’s comedy and then there’s shit.
They can go blue as far as they want, I’m not prissy and if you make me laugh I can forgive almost everything. Hinchcliffe isn’t funny. And he’s shit. Like his employer the other night.
Exactly, he was being crass and vile for crassness sake... that's just overall stupid and gross.
Sorry for that visceral reaction to him, A. . There’s such a wide latitude that I give to those humans that can make the world - if not wholly - passably tolerable, but I just really despise the poseurs who think insult equals funny.
Great piece of writing, I’ve missed you. xx
*huuugs* No need to apologize, I am right there with you--and witty dry humor of the British variety insult can be fun--I've had it directed at me and could only laugh myself to tears--but such humor is often all in good jest. Not with Kill Tony or whatever the heck he calls himself. Someone needs to "kill" his career, where is a good stage hook when you need it? LOL--sending so much love!
Back at you sweetheart - hope all family is good xxx
Yep! I have been trying to hold back a flare and feeling tired 90 percent the time--I nod off like a narcoleptic lol
My arms around you, strength.
Sadly, I've met women who find some of the abuse of women humor funny. Somehow they didn't get how offensive it is. I used to laugh at that 💩 until I realized years later how horrific it is.
As for Roast humor, I find some of it funny like the annual stuff done to roast a certain celebrity. Also, Obama's roast of DJT at that one dinner was so on point. I saw the one roast of the late Bob Saget and most of that just seemed juvenile and unfunny.
One insult comic that I had heard of yet had never seen was Andrew “Dice” Clay. After years of never seeing any of his stuff I tried to give him a chance on YouTube. I don't think I made it out of the first 30 minutes. His shtick was disgusting and vile yet I can see why DJT would find him funny until Clay once did a routine about DJT that nailed him.
This also makes me think about Two Live Crew. Some of their music seems misogynistic. When I've listened to it via YouTube I can hear how some people are offended yet I hear the group satirizing such behavior and showing how pathetic it really is.
Indeed--As I got older I truly began to despise how often violence against women is used as a punchline... little wonder some folks have become desensitized to the idea of it and so many in our society view harm coming to women so cavalierly.
I get it. I get how some women comics have turned the table so that men get uncomfortable when it's about men being the subjugated abused partner. I've come to find that humor goes a bit far at times. I remember hearing about that becoming a thing somewhere around the time of the metoo movement. Some women actually called out the comics for those jokes because they said it was no better than when men made such jokes. The pendulum of extremes keeps swinging.
I immediately thought of Carlin, Pryor and Bill HIcjs after that tool. Satire punches up and never down.
Exactly rights!